Submission details
<Website> Where are all the MS employees?
I get the feeling that MS doesn't even pay attention to this site anymore because I never see any of the green Windows Logos next to the MS employees. Where are they? Should we even keep this site up if they're not looking?
Medium
Medium
Not fixed
Discussion (41 comments)
Perhaps they are put off by countless useless "suggestions" (which make finding real UX quirks sumbissions difficult by the way)
If you think many sugestions are "useless" then why not post your own "usefull" ideas
>>Perhaps they are put off by countless useless "suggestions"
Bingo.
So I guess we're just posting for the hell of it then. ='[
I'm submiting so i can go back next year when Windows 7 is done and check if they've actually fix user experience quirks.
Nothing worng with sugestions. If long keeps them then its fine,. he owns the site not you
The problem is that Windows is used by over 400 million users worldwide including many millions of businesses. Microsoft really doesn't have the time or the resources to focus on this as well as the complaints of a few avid users like us.
By and large, Windows enables people to be extremely productive and the vast, vast majority of people are not bothered if an icon is slightly off centre or a colour doesn't fit. Microsoft are hardly "playing around" by focusing on producing a (now) massively reliable operating system with a 92% OS market share.
I quite enjoy finding these little problems and quirks in Windows and discussing them, but we shouldn't fool ourselves that it's Microsoft's number one or even number two priority. They're only humans so they're always going to make mistakes and it's not as easy as you might think to change something that seems so small to us.
I'm not saying that we should stop noticing these things and talking about them; sometimes very interesting suggestions are made here. But just don't expect Microsoft to sweat over some of these issues. They don't cause any big problems and they're not going to cause people to switch to Apple in droves.
Don't think Microsoft doesn't care about users like us; they just simply can't make everyone happy, all of the time.
Man, if you look our submission, you'll see A LOT OF AMAZING ideas and a LOT OF BUGS! We're trying to make windows a perfect system? Why? Probably because we're idiots, or because we LOVE windows...so don't come here and say that microsft wont give a chet for us...
The OWNER OF THIS SITE must email microsft and say to them to COME TAKE A LOOK HERE, and he must not make us post as idiots...
SO PLEASE GUYS, CALL THE OWNER, OR JUST EMAIL MICROSFT OURSELVES TO CALL THEM HERE!
WE POST TO HELP! IF THEY DONT GIVE A SHIT, WE'LL DONT GIVE A CHEAT TO THEM!
If you read what I said, lipinho170, you'll see that I didn't say that Microsoft "don't give a shit". I just said that it's impossible for them to keep us all happy. I'd love for Windows to be perfect but it'll always have it's flaws, just like anything made by fallible humans will.
How many people are registered on this site? Not more than 200 probably. That's a drop in the ocean compared to the 400 million people around the world who use Windows every day and don't particularly care if Notepad "looks a bit dated". We just need to look at the big picture a bit more.
In fact, I'd rather that Windows was full of little quirks and is reliable and fast, compared to it being perfect from a UI point-of-view but structurally unstable and unreliable.
And I certainly never said we were idiots, either.
i'm saying man, we're trying to help them! If you see, we're a bit more than 200, probably, with probably 600 submissions OR MORE...so, windows 7 has a LOT OF BUGS! We tries to help, if you see post like this (http://www.windows7taskforce.com/view/540) or like this (http://www.windows7taskforce.com/view/534), you'll see, small bugs, but bugs that make ALL THE difference...
Have other bugs and errors that users post here, that is just RIDICULOUS to a OS like Windows...
I said there were probably only 200 people on this site, not submissions. Even if it was 600 people, that's a mere fraction of the 400 million who use Windows everyday.
Most of the bugs and quirks, whilst incredibly important to you and me, DO NOT make a difference on the whole. In fact, the more prominent Windows is, the harder it is for them to catch everything. You might just think that they can walk to a PC, change a line of code and it's fixed but it's not as simple as that. Microsoft is too busy creating a first-rate OS to worry about a few quirks posted by obsessives like us.
If little bugs like these make all the difference, then why aren't people switching to the Mac in droves? They make all the difference to us and us alone.
Because Mac computers are too expensives, and man, please, dont say that its little bugs...there are a LOT of "big" bugs posted here...yes, there is 400milion peoples, that DONT GIVE ANY FEEDBACK TO THEM...and a first-rate OS should have NO BUG, or it wont be a first-rate...
We're 200 people inside 400 milion, bug we are the 200 people that GIVE FEEDBACK to them...and man, i'm a devoloper, i know that is simple as you said, go to a pc, and change a simple line...so please, dont say cheat...
So, do you make a software platform (not just a program, a platform) that is used by 400 million people worldwide? I develop software as a hobby and I can very easily change something in my program, click Build and then post it online. It's a bit different with a product such as Windows, I'm sure you'll agree.
As for little bugs. A big bug would be something that affects millions of people: causes them to lost their work, disrupts their work-flow or renders their PC inoperable. A little bug is an icon appearing off-centre or a program not looking pretty enough. "Quirks", as a term, is so chosen because it refers to something that is merely an oddity or an annoyance. Where on this site is there a submission relating to a "big bug" that affects usability in a MAJOR way?
You must see my point. It's good to give feedback, but we can't expect Microsoft to focus all, or even a small fraction, of their energy on resolving some of the "quirks" in their OS. It's just not necessary or a priority. That vast majority of people don't just "not give feedback", they don't notice the things that irk us. And why should they?
An OS with "no bugs" is impossible to come across, especially if it's installed on hundreds of millions of different PCs in hundreds of different countries, with many different languages, with hundreds of millions of other applications installed on top of it.
why do you think mac is so well done
why do you think mac is so well done
here is your bug: http://www.windows7taskforce.com/view/51
@.Chris
Because the Mac only takes up 5% of the OS market share. They have more time to spend on these little things.
why they have? Why time its = users? Man, think before answer...
@lipinho170
That's annoying and ugly looking but it's not a big bug, is it?
Don't get me wrong: I'd love all these quirks to be resolved. I just don't think you can realistically expect it to be on top of Microsoft's to-do-list.
Its more because the mac is made and installed on the same hardware by the same people. unlike PCs
man, you must know, these bugs exist...if microsoft dont correct they, what are they doing? The visual part is almost done, and the system core too, now, its time to correct bugs, these kind of bugs...and if they dont look for this site, where they gonna find these bugs? Its not easier look here than try to find them selves?
@.Chris
That's a very good point. Windows is installed on all sorts of systems, cobbled together by many different companies, so it adds a degree of unpredictability to the mix. But certain problems (like an ugly 9x-style icon) will be the same whatever the hardware; that sort of thing is down to the developers.
All the old 9x-style icons in Windows XP used to really bug me (no pun intended) but with each version of Windows, they're slowly all disappearing. Now, there's loads of ugly XP-style icons knocking around so Microsoft will always miss something.
@ lipinho170 May I suggest something? Take a deep breath, and calm down
I post and comment here, not because I think that this site is on Microsoft to do list (fix all teh quirks) it is for, if there is a chnace that let's say the Start Menu dev. team goes "Oh look at that, that's easy to fix, let's fix it. Or go, "Ok nothing major, we will fix it if we have time at the end.". Because if each team focuses on these, their superiors will be like, "Ok guys we are shipping Windows 7, WOW it looks great, but heuuu you only put 10% of all the features we planed." Oups!
Also some thing needs to be mentioned is that Windows 7 is in pre-beta, meaning that the developers are far from being done. I am sure Microsoft employees uses Vista and see many of the bugs which they watch out when they work on the next version of Windows.
Let's Wait next year when they release the beta.
Domstapleton's comments make me feel a little better. They can't focus on just us, they have to think about the greater good. Still, I hope they some of the quirks and take some of our suggestions.
Although as a side note, you guys are getting the numbers wrong. Windows runs on roughly 1 billion PCs world-wide (according to MS), and Mac now takes up about 17% market share (according to Apple). Not that the numbers matter, I just thought I'd throw that out there.
And since Apple controls EVERYTHING from the hardware to the software and the components and iPods and iPhones, Apple TV and all their other stuff, it's easy for their stuff to run flawlessly.
> If you think many sugestions are "useless" then why not post your own "usefull" ideas
Can you be any more childish? I don't need to post anything just to be able to say that what the others are doing is wrong. If you don't like a movie or a CD you don't necessarily produce your own
Long DID POINT OUT at one of the threads WHAT THIS SITE SHOULD BE USED FOR.
http://www.windows7taskforce.com/view/232#comment-1538
It should be for:
- wrong icons
- pixels off in UI elements
- inconsistent UI
- ugly UI
- other practical design related problems
It should not be for:
- "Vista runs slow"
- "Change the entire UI"
- "Make all new icons"
- "Copy OSX"
- "Change the name of Windows"
Maybe he doesn't have time to read all those MEANINGFUL suggestions and delete them, I don't know, but what I know for sure is that he quite clearly gave you the impression what SHOULD be posted and what SHOULDN'T.
Apparently .Chris doesn't give a s**t about it, because he'd prefer Long to enforce these rules (see link), rather than obey them himself.
And I don't think MS employees have the time to browse through this enormous pile of suggestions (which they'll never implement in Windows 7) to find those that are truly UX quirks (pixels off, outdated icons). Right now it's a needle in a haystack.
@Arayta
According to this, the Mac's market share has only just cracked 8%:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?...&articleId=9115988
And I'm not sure of the exact figure for Windows but this is where I got the 400 million from:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1005120801439
Never go to the interested parties to find out what their market shares are; they'll always lie.
I'm glad I made you feel a bit better. As long as people know that I'm not saying that Microsoft doesn't care, or that Windows is already perfect or they we're idiots. There's a slim chance that a few Microsoft developers, involved in Windows 7, might look at this site and adjust something but it is slim. They're probably still working on reducing the start up and shutdown times and making sure Windows 7 doesn't have the compatibility problems that Vista had. lipinho170 says that the system core is almost done, but that's the point; I reckon that UI issues take up about 5% of their time. The rest of the time, they're working on things that you never see but have a major effect on Windows' stability and performance.
Also, I think, it's better to be commenting on Windows 7 as it's still in production. Microsoft are not going to release any updates for Windows Vista that fix the kinds of things we mention here. Even the next service pack for Vista will just be a roll-up of hotfixes.
@domstapleton
Although I agree with your major point (correct me if I’m wrong) that Microsoft can't pamper our every desire. There are a few points I respectfully disagree with.
1. You say we are 200 strong - a tiny drop in the windows ocean. But I believe we are representative of so many more.
First those who are interested enough in UX that they visit this site but never create an account. I was in that position till not so long ago. However in if there are only 10x as many visitors and contributors it’s still a tiny number, 2,000 say.
But of course for every person interested in UX design to go hunting on the internet there will be many many people who are only consciously frustrated by bad UX (e.g. a balloon pop-up for example) let’s say 100x as many. Now we have 200,000.
Lastly we have those who are sub-consciously affected by bad UX. I’m making a wild guess and saying 1000x more - now we a getting into the hundreds of millions category and suddenly the 200 contributors become representative of a much greater issue. Of course my figures are all made up, as was your initial 200 but I think my point is valid.
2. I would never expect Microsoft to even acknowledge most of the crap on this site much less act on it in their future operating systems. I do however expect some acknowledgment on some of the more popular suggestions on this site, especially if they are deciding to act on them, people need the encouragement. I think it is abysmal that Microsoft has only commented on 1 suggestion (that I have seen). I would like to see every suggestion in 'most popular of all time' get a sanctioned response.
But what do I know. I’m only one voice representative of just me.
JP
> I would like to see every suggestion in 'most popular of all time'
Well, "most popular of all time" is a list of ALL suggestions ever posted sorted by popularity ;)
@Jote
surely i didn't really have to clarify for your nit picking but here it is - "I would like to see every suggestion on the first page when suggestions are ranked by 'most popular of all time' get a sanctioned response."
JP
@Jaips: on the contrary. Saying "most popular of all time" does not imply the first page of said list. Thanks anyway.
@Jaips
You've made some very good points. It's true that certain UX issues affect a great number of people, consciously and subconsciously, and I'm sure that Microsoft will want to fix these, but they're always going to make the odd mistake. Also, it might be a bit like Pandora's box; if they start resolving many of the problems we mention here then people will get more demanding and soon they'll be spending too much time on the UI and not enough time on the, I'm sorry to say, more important parts.
My figure of 200 we definitely made up. I've no idea how many people are registered on this site and, frankly, I think even 200 is generous. And, sure. more people look at this site than sign up and contribute (2,000 is probably a fair estimate of this demographic).
I think once you filter out most of the nonsense on this site, there are probably 100 issues that are quite important and these are the ones Microsoft should focus on. Maybe Long should deliver the 10 most popular submissions to Microsoft for them to work on. They might take notice, they might not. But they're more likely to pay attention to issues that do genuinely cause problems for users, especially if they've got a lot of attention from power users such as ourselves.
Now that I think about it, I think that UX quirks are things that could be fixed through service packs. Everything else is what they're working on now, like stability, boot up time, etc, things that make not be such a quick fix. These are the things that people will look at first (or maybe second, after the new features, depending on who's doing the review).
@Jote, sorry for snapping, no doubt what i was trying to communicate was clearer in my head than in my written form.
@domstapleton, Yes your right and i'm definitely not advocating microsoft shift focus away from core functions or even new features to work on UX (as if they are mutually exclusive) in fact i'm not even saying microsoft has to implement any of the suggestions made on this site.
I do think however that they are a very important party in this discussion and even have a vested interest in its continuation, on that basis alone they should be contributing to the dialog. Its also mostly why i think they should come 'here' rather than Long send the top 10 'there'.
I talked about encouragment before: I think some of the more popular posts deserve a response alot of effort has gone into suggestions such "unifed control panel"
http://www.windows7taskforce.com/view/145
Its even possible responses to the more popular posts would encourage a higher calibre of suggestions as people strive to get recognition. (I'd love to see an end to some of the immature rants as much as you probably do)
I think you orginal thought is very important, we have to keep perspective, we are still a very small community, our only value is if we are truely representative of the wider windows ecosystem.
@Arayta
Service packs are only roll-ups of essential updates and hot fixes. Microsoft broke from the rubric by including so many new features in XP Service Pack 2 only because Windows XP needed more advanced security features desperately. If Microsoft starting including UX fixes in their service packs, there would be a lot of companies who would be unhappy that their "essential" updates were full of (to them) useless tweaks. Businesses don't like updates because it means that, for a while, a number of their systems will be unavailable while they install the updates.
So, I don't think they should be included in service packs at all. But, I think Microsoft should consider separate update packs that come out every quarter maybe, for just UX issues. These could be optional so the business are unaffected and avid users like us can get little improvements every now and again.
All I'm saying is: still give us the UX updates, but leave the service packs as sacrosanct.
@Jaips
I do accept your point. I just get fed up when people post a submission saying "this icon is 1 pixel too far to the left!" and then they say "WHAT IS MICROSOFT DOING!? How can they get away with something so disgusting!?"
Just seems a bit silly to me.
Also I don't think the MS contributors on this site were contributing in an official capacity. I think they just found it in their spare time and thought they'd leave a few comments. You never know, Microsoft probably found out and stopped them from doing it (they have secrets to keep, you know).
@domstapleton:
It doesn't have to be an "essential" upgrade. In fact, most of the Windows updates I get are marked as "optional." Besides, I don't think a UX bug fix would take more than maybe a few megabytes, which is nothing. I've found that after installing some optional upgrades, I didn't have to reboot.
@Calum.Cook
But Apple DOES get to choose those components, they can write/include excellent drivers for them, and test the hell out of future OSes and applications on every possible Mac computer (which, in the end, is just a handful).
Apple also designs the motherboards for their computers (along with Foxconn).
PC manufacturers can test their PCs too, but they don't have access to the Windows source code, they don't write apps for Windows...etc
It may well seem like Microsoft is unresponsive and doesn't care for ordinary users of Windows, but the reality is that they know about the site, have employees monitoring it and also aggregating views with those taken from the CEIP and feedback groups. The reality of the matter is that new features and breaking bugs must be concentrated on first and foremost before things like misplaced or old icons are fixed. It has to be understood that it's not just a case of an architect changing a line of code and merging the results into the trunk. Each and every change needs to be justified, audited and checked which takes a lot of time. Microsoft is listening and I have no doubt things will be updated, it'll just take some time. :)
Assigned to categories: "Website suggestions"
Removed from categories: "Usability"
.Chris wrote on December 15, 2008, 12:45am
i know. They fail to even give us feedback on whats going on whats fixed and what not. come on microsoft, quit playing around